Re: Song Key??

From: Paul P
Subject: Re: Song Key??
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 11:05:54 -0400

Stephen Calder writes :

> Paul P wrote:
>> Stephen Calder writes :
>
>>> G-B7-E7-A7-D7-G.
>
>> That's a circle of fourths
>> (well, almost).
>
> Yeh, but what key is it in?

If the chord progession is as written I'd say it's in G.
If played with open chords on a guitar the high note
goes G, F#, E, (pause), E, F#, G. Looks like a blues
turnaround to me.

In theory, though, I'd guess that this was the key of G
modulating to the key of E by way of the B7, then
modulating back to the key of G by way of the D7.

There are three notes that are present in 3 out of the
5 chords : A, B, and D. There are three notes that are
present in all the major scales associated with the
chords : F#, B, and E. So I vote for the B to be the
basis of a one note solo on this chord progression.

I just read an interesting thing : taking any 5 consecutive
notes from the circle of fifths produces the major pentatonic
scale for the note you started on.

Paul P
From: Rufus
Subject: Re: Song Key??
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 16:59:53 GMT
Paul P wrote:
>
> Stephen Calder writes :
>
>> Paul P wrote:
>>> Stephen Calder writes :
>>
>>>> G-B7-E7-A7-D7-G.
>>
>>> That's a circle of fourths
>>> (well, almost).
>>
>> Yeh, but what key is it in?
>
> If the chord progession is as written I'd say it's in G.
> If played with open chords on a guitar the high note
> goes G, F#, E, (pause), E, F#, G. Looks like a blues
> turnaround to me.
>
> In theory, though, I'd guess that this was the key of G
> modulating to the key of E by way of the B7, then
> modulating back to the key of G by way of the D7.
>
> There are three notes that are present in 3 out of the
> 5 chords : A, B, and D. There are three notes that are
> present in all the major scales associated with the
> chords : F#, B, and E. So I vote for the B to be the
> basis of a one note solo on this chord progression.
>
> I just read an interesting thing : taking any 5 consecutive
> notes from the circle of fifths produces the major pentatonic
> scale for the note you started on.
>
> Paul P

That's probably why I asked what chord his progression resolves to -
whatever that is, that's what I'd call the key and play the solo in.

...so, in this case, it appears to be G, or likely G minor...to me.

--
- Rufus
From: Stephen Calder
Subject: Re: Song Key??
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:58:08 GMT
Rufus wrote:
> Paul P wrote:
>>
>> Stephen Calder writes :
>>
>>> Paul P wrote:
>>>> Stephen Calder writes :
>>>
>>>>> G-B7-E7-A7-D7-G.
>>>
>>>> That's a circle of fourths
>>>> (well, almost).
>>>
>>> Yeh, but what key is it in?
>>
>> If the chord progession is as written I'd say it's in G.
>> If played with open chords on a guitar the high note
>> goes G, F#, E, (pause), E, F#, G. Looks like a blues
>> turnaround to me.
>>
>> In theory, though, I'd guess that this was the key of G
>> modulating to the key of E by way of the B7, then
>> modulating back to the key of G by way of the D7.
>>
>> There are three notes that are present in 3 out of the
>> 5 chords : A, B, and D. There are three notes that are
>> present in all the major scales associated with the
>> chords : F#, B, and E. So I vote for the B to be the
>> basis of a one note solo on this chord progression.
>>
>> I just read an interesting thing : taking any 5 consecutive
>> notes from the circle of fifths produces the major pentatonic
>> scale for the note you started on.
>>
>> Paul P
>
> That's probably why I asked what chord his progression resolves to -
> whatever that is, that's what I'd call the key and play the solo in.
>
> ...so, in this case, it appears to be G, or likely G minor...to me.
>


I was responding to the proposition that if you know how to harmonise a
scale, you'll always know what key you're in.

That's true for simple songs, but in this progression we're changing key
with every chord.

A seventh chord always wants to resolve to the major chord a fourth away
(B7 to E). When we switch to B7 from G we are suddenly in the key of E,
the key of the chord that B7 wants to resolve to.

From there the progression briefly moves to each of the keys A and D
before cycling back to G.

It's not always that easy to tell what key you're in from the
progression alone, but 99 per cent of the time, if you have, say, a G7
chord, it's a big clue that key is C.

The circle of fifths will tell you what each seventh chord will resolve
to. It resolves to the chord to the left.


F C G D A E B Gb Db Ab Eb Bb F C G etc




G7 resolves to C, E7 resolves to A, F7 resolves to Bb.






--
Stephen
Ballina, Australia
From: Rufus
Subject: Re: Song Key??
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 00:46:34 GMT
Stephen Calder wrote:
> Rufus wrote:
>> Paul P wrote:
>>>
>>> Stephen Calder writes :
>>>
>>>> Paul P wrote:
>>>>> Stephen Calder writes :
>>>>
>>>>>> G-B7-E7-A7-D7-G.
>>>>
>>>>> That's a circle of fourths
>>>>> (well, almost).
>>>>
>>>> Yeh, but what key is it in?
>>>
>>> If the chord progession is as written I'd say it's in G.
>>> If played with open chords on a guitar the high note
>>> goes G, F#, E, (pause), E, F#, G. Looks like a blues
>>> turnaround to me.
>>>
>>> In theory, though, I'd guess that this was the key of G
>>> modulating to the key of E by way of the B7, then
>>> modulating back to the key of G by way of the D7.
>>>
>>> There are three notes that are present in 3 out of the
>>> 5 chords : A, B, and D. There are three notes that are
>>> present in all the major scales associated with the
>>> chords : F#, B, and E. So I vote for the B to be the
>>> basis of a one note solo on this chord progression.
>>>
>>> I just read an interesting thing : taking any 5 consecutive
>>> notes from the circle of fifths produces the major pentatonic
>>> scale for the note you started on.
>>>
>>> Paul P
>>
>> That's probably why I asked what chord his progression resolves to -
>> whatever that is, that's what I'd call the key and play the solo in.
>>
>> ...so, in this case, it appears to be G, or likely G minor...to me.
>>
>
>
> I was responding to the proposition that if you know how to harmonise a
> scale, you'll always know what key you're in.
>
> That's true for simple songs, but in this progression we're changing key
> with every chord.
>
> A seventh chord always wants to resolve to the major chord a fourth away
> (B7 to E). When we switch to B7 from G we are suddenly in the key of E,
> the key of the chord that B7 wants to resolve to.
>
> From there the progression briefly moves to each of the keys A and D
> before cycling back to G.
>
> It's not always that easy to tell what key you're in from the
> progression alone, but 99 per cent of the time, if you have, say, a G7
> chord, it's a big clue that key is C.
>
> The circle of fifths will tell you what each seventh chord will resolve
> to. It resolves to the chord to the left.
>
>
> F C G D A E B Gb Db Ab Eb Bb F C G etc
>
>
>
>
> G7 resolves to C, E7 resolves to A, F7 resolves to Bb.
>
>
>
>
>
>

All those 7ths sound funny to me because as you point out they don't
resolve each other through the progression, but that's not really what I
was getting at.

I was talking about choosing a key for playing a lead - more at what
does the progression "resolve to" - i.e.; in keeping with the point
about where you start being the root of a penatatonic scale, then if the
progression starts in G and returns to G, I'd play a lead predominantly
positioned in G over it...I'd also be likely to "play the change" at the
bridge (whatever it is...), but that's only because it's my habit from
playing a lot of blues that way.

Noodling through the progression as written - G-B7-E7-A7-D7-G - I can
improvise a lead that follows those changes and still keeps my left hand
in a position that uses the blues minor pent scale -

http://guitarsphere.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/minor-pentatonic-scale.jpg

(which is the first scale I ever learned, and what I play the most of)
rooted in G and using notes in 1st, 2nd, and 5th positions. So the way
I'd play it, I'd call the key of this progression as G or G minor
because that's what I'd use to play a lead over it.

--
- Rufus
From: Stephen Calder
Subject: Re: Song Key??
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 01:45:24 GMT
Rufus wrote:

>
> Noodling through the progression as written - G-B7-E7-A7-D7-G - I can
> improvise a lead that follows those changes and still keeps my left hand
> in a position that uses the blues minor pent scale -
>
> http://guitarsphere.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/minor-pentatonic-scale.jpg
>
>
> (which is the first scale I ever learned, and what I play the most of)
> rooted in G and using notes in 1st, 2nd, and 5th positions. So the way
> I'd play it, I'd call the key of this progression as G or G minor
> because that's what I'd use to play a lead over it.
>

An approach that yields more possibilities is the chord tones,
especially the flattened sevenths in each dominant chord, not all of
which are scale notes in G. It's also possible to make use of walking
bass runs to get you from chord to chord, eg E7 to A7 use B-A#-A.

Knowing about dominant sevenths and how they resolve lets you build on
the tension created and gets you out of the pent box.



--
Stephen
Ballina, Australia